Talking about bias

- [Man] You've talked about bias, and you've used the term bias, you even said unconscious bias. It seems as if the default when anytime we talk about bias within that diverse and inclusion space, is that it's unconscious. Do you think that's a fair observation? And if so, why do you think that when we talk about bias, we're often talking about unconscious bias and not just bias? - [Woman] I think that's fair. I think, really critical to any conversation I have about bias is about bringing the unconscious to consciousness, but also acknowledging that conscious bias exists. So, I think unconscious bias can sometimes be used negatively, just like diversity of thought. Diversity of thought is really valuable but it shouldn't be the reason you don't have diversity in other dimensions. And unconscious bias is really important and it doesn't negate the reality that there are very conscious bias that exists and impact people's decisions. So I always include that in any conversation I'm having about bias or any facilitation I'm doing, and the distinction is that conscious bias are things we can state directly. And so like once you can say it, it's no longer an unconscious bias. So you'll hear people say, I have an unconscious bias around mothers of young children, I really just don't want to be hiring mothers of young children. - Right. And I know that's a conscious bias. You just said it. - Right. Once you've said it, it's not unconscious anymore. And it's important for people to reconcile that. You're running interviews and for all the candidates of color, you're asking them about office etiquette, appropriate dress attire and showing up to work on time and how to provide good customer service and then for all your like non person of color or your white candidates, you're asking them about the substantive job responsibilities, right? - [Man] Right. - [Woman] And then someone brings it to your attention 'cause interviews are often done in panel, there's usually more than one person at the interview, which is best practice. And they say, "Hey, I noticed that we spent like an inordinate amount of time with some of those candidates talking about what time they need to be at work and I feel like at this level of a position, that's not that significant. And I sort of noticed that you only asked some of them that and not others." and like, "Oh, well, I had this black lady working for me once and she was always late and I just want to make sure that that doesn't happen again." Right? Someone says to you, "Well, that's sounds like you've got a bias around that." I mean, once it's been brought to your attention, you don't get to keep doing it. You don't get to keep making decisions through that frame. You have to work to mitigate potential negative impact of that bias. So, I think that any conversation around unconscious bias should include discussion about conscious bias and some of the real conscious bias that we have about employees at work and who should be in roles of authority and power, who should be promoted or what kind of- whether that's it is that, "Oh, well, Pamela, we have this big project but it requires lots of travel. We probably don't want Pamela to do that. She's got those little kids or she's taking care of her mother who's sick." Right? - [Man] Right. - [Woman] There's the bias in that, you have to have a conversation with me about that, that affects my employment and my potential and possibilities in the organization. So, I just think they come hand in hand and one can't be used as an excuse to ignore the other.