From the course: Data Visualization: A Lesson and Listen Series

Listen: Neil Halloran

- So now I'm at the LinkedIn studios recording booth, and it's time to start talking to our guest, Neil Halloran, we're gonna talk about our theme for the day. Neil is the creator of The Fallen of World War II, and it's time to start talking to our guest, Neil Halloran. which is a great video and interactive piece We're going to talk about our theme for the day. about World War II, he also created something called Neil is the creator of The Fallen The Shadow Peace, which is the, of World War II, which is a great video essentially a sequel to The Fallen, and interactive piece about World War II. focusing on nuclear weapons. He also created something called The Shadow Peace, Before we talk to Neil, I want to just sort of dive in which is essentially a sequel to The Fallen, and take a quick look at one of his pieces. We're gonna look at The Shadow Peace here. (clicking) - [Narrator] Every second on average, 4.6 people are born into the world. That's 140 million births a year. (clicking) (ominous music) (clunking) (dramatic music) There are currently over seven billion people alive today. (dramatic music) Humans are dying at less than half the rate we're being born. About two die every second, which is 60 million deaths a year. (foreboding music) And the difference between the birth rate and the death rate tells us how fast the world's population is growing. And the difference between the birth rate (ominous music) (clicking) and the death rate tells us We're gaining about two and a half people per second, how fast the world's population is growing. or 83 million a year. (cubes clicking) We're gaining about two and a half people per second, - So that's the opening sequence to The Shadow Peace. or 83 million a year. so many great aspects to it that make it an incredible data storytelling experience. - So that's the opening sequence to The Shadow Peace. It's got so many great components, It got those simple visual elements, so many great aspects to it, the cubes, to represent the data points. that make it an incredible data storytelling experience. It's got the overall visual metaphor of the hourglass It's got those simple visual elements, that sort of puts it all into context. the cubes, to represent the data points. It's got the sounds, those clicks, It's got the overall visual metaphor of the hourglass to help you understand the rate of data going by, that sort of puts it all into context. It's got the sound, those clicks, The use of the camera to essentially to help you understand the rate of data going by, zoom in and out to sort of focus in on detail, the people being born and people dying, etc. and then also allow you to see the big picture. The use of the camera to essentially zoom in and out And also the great pacing, it doesn't rush to sort of focus in on detail, and then also allow you to build a little bit of anticipation, to see the big picture. to wonder what we're leading towards. And also the great pacing, it doesn't rush to get you to the point. The narrator's voice, of course, It allows you to build a little bit of anticipation, really helps solidify and tell the story, helps us understand what's going on. to wonder what we're leading towards. And the use of simple, spare on-screen text The narrator's voice, of course, really helps solidify and tell the story. to really help bring everything home, It helps us understand what's going on. sort of like labeling a chart properly. And the use of simple, spare, onscreen text All of these things combined make Neil's work really great, to really help bring everything home, sort of like labeling a chart properly. And I'm really excited to have Neil Halloran All of these things combined make Neil's work really great, joining us now, so Neil, thank you for joining me, and welcome. a great example of data visualization for regular folk, - Well thanks for having me, this is great. and I'm really excited to have Neil Halloran joining us now. - Excellent, so Neil, today's theme So Neil, thank you for joining me, and welcome. is data visualization for regular folks, - Well, thanks for having me, this is great. and I think a great example of that - Excellent, so Neil, today's theme is data visualization is the Fallen and the Shadow Peace. And so I wanted to start off just by asking you, for regular folks, and you know, I think a great example I know that you try to get a general, of that is The Fallen and The Shadow Peace. sort of wide audience for your work, and you did that very, very successfully. And so, I wanted to start off just by asking you, What do you think is the most important thing I know that you try to get a general sort of wide audience that essentially you were trying to do for your work, and you did that very, very successfully. when you're creating those pieces, What do you think is the most important thing I guess the example being, was it more about that essentially you were trying to do the data that you were talking about, when you were creating those pieces? I guess the example being, was it more was it the visual design, what is it, about the data that you were talking about, do you think, that made that so successful was it about the emotional component, at reaching a wide audience like that? was it the visual design? What is it, do you think, that made that so successful - So yeah, as you said, I'm definitely trying to create at reaching a wide audience like that? an emotional experience, one that's also cinematic, - So yeah, as you said, I'm definitely trying and the thinking behind that is that to create an emotional experience, one that's also cinematic, and the thinking behind that is communicating data is something that is difficult to do in a lot of ways, when you're trying to talk to, that communicating data is something that is difficult or appeal to wider audiences, and anything you can do to do, in a lot of ways, when you're trying to make something more interesting, to talk to or appeal to wider audiences. especially if you're trying to grab someone's attention And anything you can do to make something more interesting, who's not being paid to look at your work, so if something pops up in somebody's social media feed, especially if you're trying to grab someone's attention who's not being paid to look at your work. to try to hook them, emotionally, from the beginning, So if something pops up in somebody's social media feed, hold their attention throughout the piece, to try to hook them emotionally from the beginning, deliver something, some kind of a message that will, hold their attention throughout the piece, something that would give them reason deliver something, some kind of a message that will, Those are the things I'm thinking about as I'm working on it and trying to accomplish, something that would give them reason to share it to their friends. and so a lot of it is about creating that Those are the things I'm thinking about kind of emotional appeal, which, in the case of as I'm working on it, and trying to accomplish. And so, a lot of it is about creating that kind telling a story about World War II, and tallying death, of emotional appeal, which in the case of telling a story it's more obviously an emotional story about World War II and tallying deaths, when you're talking about the human loss. But I'm trying to do that with other topics as well, it's more obviously an emotional story to try to create that emotional intrigue about the data. when you're talking about such human loss. But I'm trying to do that with other topics as well, - [Interviewer] So emotion is the number one to try to create that emotional intrigue about the data. most important thing, do you think? - I think so, I think that when you get into other topics, the emotion may be - [Interviewer] So emotion is the number one, most important thing, do you think? - I think so, I mean, I think that, less obvious and pronounced and severe, so I'm doing a piece now on global warming, but I do think a lot about what is the emotional component to this, even if it's less dramatic. So maybe it's trying to make something engaging and interesting, and a good way of doing that is to think about emotion, and think about how people are feeling as they're looking at the data. So I suppose that probably, that would be, that the one thing would be creating an emotional story about data would be the one thing I'm trying to do. - Okay, so, you know, emotion is one aspect, and it's sort of a semi-controversial component of data storytelling in a way, a lot of people in the data visualization community are sort of in a debate about emotion, in particular, even just the word storytelling. I think I can guess where you fall on the spectrum of how the term data storytelling fits, whether it's an appropriate term to use, et cetera. But talk a little bit about storytelling, generally, and where you think it belongs in the world of data visualization and information design. - Yeah, so, I feel that in some ways, the debate about storytelling can be like a semantic food fight, where there isn't necessarily a lot of meaning, but in other ways, I think that there is something behind it, so... And the other thing I should say is that a lot of people who have been kind of putting down storytelling and questioning its use, are some of my biggest heroes. And kinda thought leaders in the industry, so I totally respect what they're saying about it, I feel that, one of the problems with the word storytelling is that the first question is what does it actually mean, especially in the context of data, where there isn't always a linear component. In my work, there is a linear component, so it's a little more obvious to say, okay, there's an arc, this follows these more traditional things when you think about the story. But I would define storytelling as whatever the thing is that makes an argument, or a presentation of data interesting. I don't think that an argument is enough if you're trying to appeal to wide audiences. And so a lot of this does get to this issue of are you trying to speak to people who are your colleagues, who are people in your organization or business, or people who are already familiar with what you're presenting, or familiar with data and looking at charts, or are you trying to speak to wider audiences, and if you are trying to speak to wider audiences, I feel like you need something that goes beyond a strong argument, or something that goes beyond you know, reason and good data, it's something else, and so in some ways, that something else that makes something interesting, you could say is story, but it is a fuzzy definition, and I can definitely understand why folks get frustrated with it, because it's, it's over-hyped, and it's a very sexy word, and sometimes it seems like it's a lot of sexiness, but not a lot of content behind what it actually means. - This sounds like we're trying to create all this controversy in this interview, and it's not, this is the last bit, (laughing) I promise, but you had a really good Twitter rant recently, a few months back, talking about what you also just alluded to, the idea that the community, which I agree, there are these amazing people doing incredible work, leaders in the industry who have different opinions than I do on some of these topics, and I do agree it's mostly semantics, but there's also this issue in the community that you were talking about where the data visualization community is sort of really being driven by academics and technicians who sort of talk amongst themselves about data visualization, and is in a fairly academic and technical way, and it's not a lot of talk within the community about this more wider audience conversation, and bringing that thought leadership to a wider audience. And so, I wanted to ask you about that rant, what triggered you to sort of go on that, start that conversation, and has your thinking about it evolved at all in the last few months. - Yeah, so, I did have a little bit of Tweet regret after that Twitter storm. I do believe what I wrote, but I feel like I was a little bit heavy on those Twitter keys. I wanted to stress that this is kinda like, it was a selfish rant in that, you know, from my self-absorbed perspective, I want people to be talking more about reaching wide audiences, and as you said, a lot of what data visualization is, is something which is academic, but also people communicating to colleagues, and part of that is some of the economics behind the industry, right, so a lot of people who listen to podcasts and go to conferences and buy books are trying to figure out how do I communicate data to people in my workplace. I feel like that kind of drives, or skews a little bit of the conversation towards people who are trying to figure out how they can do it themselves. And trying to communicate to wider audiences is, a lot of that overlaps, so a lot of what we're talking about is even when you're having academic conversations, overlaps is what I'm doing for sure, but there is a lot that is different, it is a different challenge, and so, yeah, there's a part of me that wishes that conversation was happening more. I had an experience where I presented a piece at a workshop, and one of the people who was there was from a favorite podcast of mine, This American Life as a producer, and I was begging people for feedback, as I often do, and I said give me harsh, honest feedback. And she approached me and said that And I was begging people for feedback, as I often do. what I showed wasn't interesting enough, And I said, give me harsh, honest feedback. like she probably wouldn't stay engaged with it. And she approached me and said that what I showed just wasn't interesting enough. And it was really, it was devastating, I was whimpering all the way home, Like, she probably wouldn't stay engaged with it. but it was really good feedback, and she used the word story a lot. And it was really, it was devastating. People who often are in the podcasting world, You know, I was whimpering all the way home. (interviewer laughs) But it was really good feedback. and in the film world, often use the word story a lot, And she used the word story a lot. People who often are in the podcasting world and so I felt like, you know, if you look at the, and in the film world often use the word story a lot. the comments that are on Twitter, et cetera, within the data vis community, And so, I felt like, if you look at the comments you see really harsh criticism of people if they ever skew a chart a certain way, that are on Twitter, etc., within the data viz community, or show a pie chart that you can't tell which you see really harsh criticism of people, piece is bigger, or the wrong kind of axis. if they ever skew a chart a certain way, A lot of these technical issues, there's really harsh or show a pie chart that you can't tell criticism when people don't do something right. which piece is bigger, or the wrong kind of axis. I feel like if I need to get, A lot of these technical issues, if I want that criticism about, there's really harsh criticism is this interesting enough, will normal folks when people don't do something right. I feel like, if I need to get, if I want be engaged in this, that criticism about, is this interesting enough, people within the community seem to be a little bit softer on that question, will normal folks be engaged in this, people are, and are a little bit uncomfortable with the goal of trying to be popular to wide audiences. within the community, seem to be a little bit softer on that question, and are a little bit uncomfortable I think there's, for good reason, discomfort with with the goal of trying to be popular to wide audiences. where does that leave this craft if we're concentrating too much on I think there's, for good reason, discomfort with where does that lead this craft cliques and views as opposed to being more, if we're concentrating too much on clicks and views, caring more about being effective in how we communicate data. as opposed to being more, caring more So I feel like there's a lot of good reason to have this kind of discomfort with the conversation about being effective in how we communicate data. going that way, but I also feel like So I feel like there's a lot of good reason it's really good to think about how do we reach to have this kind of discomfort with the conversation going that way, folks who really need to be reached but I also feel like it's really good to think about, when it comes to this type of content. - I think it brings up a really good point, how do we reach folks who really need to be reached it's about a spectrum, right, between effectiveness, best practices, all that stuff when it comes to this type of content. that academics and technicians should and do care about, - Yeah, I think it brings up a really good point. It's about a spectrum, right, between effectiveness, and then having emotional impact, actually making, best practices, all that stuff that academics changing people's minds, making them think, et cetera. and technicians should and do care about, and then, yeah, having an emotional impact, In that vein, can you think of a project actually making, changing people's minds, that you've seen out in the universe, making them think, etc. it could be one of yours if you want to, in the past 12 months that just, In that vein, can you think of a project that kinda blew you away and said, wow, that was great, that you've seen out in the universe, it could be one of yours if you want to, and maybe it accomplished both, things on both ends of the spectrum, in the past 12 months that just said, that kind of blew you away and said, wow, that was great. I wish I had done that myself. (laughing) Anything that you can point to Maybe it accomplished both, things on both ends that is a great example of this kind of work. of the spectrum, I wish I had done that myself. - Whew, yeah, there is Anything that you can point to so much great work is always being done, that is a great example of this kind of work? I mean, I think that one of the, - Whew, yeah, I mean there is, the places that is really exciting to me so much great work is always being done. because it does touch a little bit upon I mean, I think that one of the places this idea of being, (clicks tongue) talking about data in a way which is more personal that is really exciting to me, because it does touch a little bit upon this idea of being, talking about data Giorgia Lupi, and she recently did in a way which is more personal and more human, a project, it was called Bruises, I think it was, that would be some of the work done by Giorgia Lupi. I forget the subtitle of it, but it's a really And she recently did a project, it was called Bruises, beautiful piece about a friend who I think it was, I forget the subtitle of it. had a daughter who was dealing with an illness, and it was so personal, and she likes to present data But it was a really beautiful piece about a friend who had a daughter who was dealing with an illness. with A, kind of a real human component, And it was so personal, and she likes to present data but also handcrafted with drawings. And so, that kind of work that is speaking to, with A, kind of a really human component, but also hand-crafted with drawings. thinking about data differently, and thinking about And so, that kind of work that is speaking to, being more human with numbers, like, thinking about data differently I thought was just really gorgeous, and set me back. and thinking about being more human with numbers, Then there's this work being done I thought was just really gorgeous and sent me back. New York Times just recently, they have a series, or certain charts that are animated, Then there's this work being done, the New York Times just recently, they have a series, that look at income brackets, and children being born who are from poorer families, or certain charts that are animated, that look at income brackets in, say, and richer families, where they end up, and it was really slick animation children being born who are from poorer families that really conveyed that information so well. and richer families, where they end up. So I thought that was amazing, And it was really slick animation that really conveyed that information so well. So I thought that was amazing. and it's just an exciting place to be, for sure. So there's always so much amazing work being produced, - Yeah, so, not at all surprised that those are two of the references you would bring up. (laughs) and it's just an exciting place to be, for sure. Also two of my favorite projects, I just incorporated that New York Times piece - Yeah, so not at all surprised that those are two of the references you would bring up, into my workshops, it's a great example, (chuckles) also two of my favorite projects. and Giorgia does amazing work, as always. I just incorporated that New York Times piece So listen, Neil, thank you very much into my workshops, it's a great example, for joining me on this, I'm sure our audience and Giorgia does amazing work, as always. will greatly appreciate your insights, and hopefully we'll run into each other So listen, Neil, thank you very much for joining me on this. out in the community one day soon, I'm sure our audience will greatly appreciate your insights. and look forward to seeing your next And hopefully we'll run into each other out bit of work that you release to the public. - Great, thank you so much. in the community one day soon, and look forward - So that was really great having Neil here today, to seeing your next bit of work as I mentioned before, Neil really is that you release to the public. a master data storyteller, he does an amazing job - Great, thank you so much. - So that was really great, having Neil here today. telling stories that are backed by data You know, as I mentioned before, Neil really is a master data storyteller. in a way that's incredibly engaging He does an amazing job telling stories and accessible to regular folks. Of course, that's our theme for today, right? that are backed by data in a way that's incredibly engaging And I really appreciated his insight into how important it is to inject emotion and accessible to regular folks. Of course, that's our theme for today, right? into your data stories, and to make them engaging And I really appreciated his insight in a way that gets people who, as he said, into how important it is to inject emotion aren't getting paid to look at your data. (laughs) into your data stories, and to make them engaging Which is a hard thing to do, it's hard to get in a way that gets people who, as he said, regular folks to be engaged in these data stories, aren't getting paid to look at your data, and he does it just about as well as anybody, which is a hard thing to do. It's hard to get regular folks to be engaged so I really, really appreciate him being on the show, in these data stories, and he does it I hope you all enjoyed it as well. just about as well as anybody. So I really, really appreciate him being on the show, and I hope you all enjoyed it as well.

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