Listen: Michelle Rial

(soft upbeat music) - So it's time for the listen portion of today's episode and I am very happy to have Michelle Rial episode and I am very happy to have Michelle Rial here with me today. Michelle has been a graphic here with me today. Michelle has been a graphic designer for Conde Nast, Buzzfeed, and others. designer for Conde Nast, Buzzfeed, and others. She does really interesting work. She does really interesting work. You can actually find her on Instagram and we'll You can actually find her on Instagram and we'll share the link with you so you can see her work. share the link with you so you can see her work. She actually does information design, what she calls She actually does information design, what she calls real life charts using physical objects. So, Michelle welcome, thank you very much for joining me today. I'm really looking forward to speaking with you. - Thank you for having me. - Yeah, my pleasure. So let's talk a little bit about your work. So as I mentioned you like to use real world objects in your creations which are on Instagram, how did you get started doing with that how did you sort of end up doing this type of work? - I've been making charts and graphs for awhile, and this specific series came after I left my recent job at Buzzfeed and I had had and actually this wasn't a work project. I had actually had an injection that was related to a chronic pain issue that I have and it took away a lot of mobility in my drawing hand and arm - [Interviewer] Mhm. - This was just getting back to doing creative work. I had kind of a shakey hand and couldn't draw I had kind of a shakey hand and couldn't draw that much, couldn't use the computer so I started that much, couldn't use the computer so I started adding in objects to tell more of the story. adding in objects to tell more of the story. - Ah, really interesting. So was it actually due - Ah, really interesting. So was it actually due to an issue where you couldn't use your drawing hand to an issue where you couldn't use your drawing hand so are you, cause I do see that you do sometimes so are you, cause I do see that you do sometimes still include drawn things still include drawn things - Yeah - Yeah - Does it sort of take extra effort to do that - Does it sort of take extra effort to do that or are you reintroducing that for other reasons or is that? or are you reintroducing that for other reasons or is that? - It does. Yeah it does. It's better than using the - It does. Yeah it does. It's better than using the computer in a sense. And so I generally try to computer in a sense. And so I generally try to keep it simple and it does help to find an object keep it simple and it does help to find an object that takes away some of that effort. that takes away some of that effort. And charts themselves or these specifically, And charts themselves or these specifically, because you know, data visualization is on a because you know, data visualization is on a larger scale or a more detailed scale is much larger scale or a more detailed scale is much different but these specifically kind of don't take different but these specifically kind of don't take that many, or they don't need that many lines. that many, or they don't need that many lines. - [Interviewer] Mhm. - It's towards themselves this style at least. - [Interviewer] Mhm. - It's towards themselves this style at least. It's a couple of lines and you're done. It's a couple of lines and you're done. You've told a story. You've told a story. - Yeah. - Yeah. (interviewer laughs) (interviewer laughs) - Yeah it was interesting, so when you told me - Yeah it was interesting, so when you told me earlier when we spoke about your path you earlier when we spoke about your path you mentioned you were working in New York Magazine mentioned you were working in New York Magazine and they did these really neat information designs, and they did these really neat information designs, infographics and that sort of inspired you. infographics and that sort of inspired you. And that you used to work on an account management And that you used to work on an account management in advertising, and then you decided in advertising, and then you decided to get into creative. to get into creative. I always like to hear stories about how people I always like to hear stories about how people get to where they are and what they're doing get to where they are and what they're doing especially when you've made a major career shift especially when you've made a major career shift like that, which a lot of people, you know most of like that, which a lot of people, you know most of our careers sort of happen to us we don't our careers sort of happen to us we don't necessarily strategically choose them so it's necessarily strategically choose them so it's nice to hear someone who has really made that nice to hear someone who has really made that choice for herself. choice for herself. So, you know when I look through your Instagram So, you know when I look through your Instagram feed, I love your work, I can't remember exactly feed, I love your work, I can't remember exactly how I came across your name but someone had how I came across your name but someone had shared your Instagram link with me and it really shared your Instagram link with me and it really caught my eye both as a designer and also as caught my eye both as a designer and also as specifically as an information designer. specifically as an information designer. So I sort of start to try to categorize the So I sort of start to try to categorize the things that I saw there which is maybe just my things that I saw there which is maybe just my left brain way of thinking sometimes. left brain way of thinking sometimes. I saw earlier in the feed more of the hand drawn I saw earlier in the feed more of the hand drawn and watercolor examples, one of my questions for and watercolor examples, one of my questions for you is why you shifted more to the real world you is why you shifted more to the real world objects, which you have already answered. objects, which you have already answered. But then another category are those where the But then another category are those where the object itself sort of embodies the idea that is object itself sort of embodies the idea that is being communicated. being communicated. The best one that I can think of as an example The best one that I can think of as an example is the bobby pins visualization which we'll show is the bobby pins visualization which we'll show on screen when we're talking about it. on screen when we're talking about it. Did you just look at a bobby pin one day and say Did you just look at a bobby pin one day and say oh that's like a perfect line chart, I need oh that's like a perfect line chart, I need to do something with this and then sort of had to do something with this and then sort of had to backwards and think backwards about how it to backwards and think backwards about how it could be depicted in that way? could be depicted in that way? Tell us how that actually came about. Tell us how that actually came about. - That's exactly right - That's exactly right (both laugh ) (both laugh ) - I just was looking at it. I started off looking - I just was looking at it. I started off looking at things that were just around that I used at things that were just around that I used frequently and this was one of them. frequently and this was one of them. Part of it is just playing around with it and stretching it out a little bit. You know, because it's not the exact shape of it. I kind of stretched it a bit and then stretched one to make the axis. - [Interviewer] Mhm. - So yeah, that's the way I like to do it, is look at it until there's something that is not totally obvious but after the fact obvious. - Yeah. - With the shape of the object. - Are you then inspired by an object first? Like literally there was a bobby pin lying on the counter and you're like oh I got to do something with that or is more like today I think I'm going to try a bobby pin painting and see what happens? - Yeah it's mostly today I'm going to try a bobby pin (laughs) - Okay - Once in awhile, like with an Ikea wrench it's oh look at this Ikea wrench lying here - [Interviewer] Yeah. - After I've tried to put something together - After you've scrapped your knuckles and there's blood on the counter - Yeah (interviewer laughs) - That's an obvious shape or that's a really recognizable object. - Yeah. I like the Ikea wrench example. Another one I saw recently, maybe it might be new, is the straw? - [Michelle] Mhm. - [Interviewer] You're sort of showing the progression of... maybe you can explain it to us. - That one is new just because I kept, or I am new to the straw controversy and I love drinking out of straws (Interviewer laughs) so that was upsetting because, so basically I just used it as a line graph to show the straw usage or straw addiction that one faces when they love drinking out of straws. And the point where you stop or want to stop is after watching the sea turtle video where they fish it out of his nose. [Interviewer] Yeah. And I had straws that I was using, I've had them for awhile. They are fun colors and I had been trying to think of something with that and finally that was it. [Interviewer] Yeah. (laughs) - Yeah. You cannot possibly tell me you decided to work with a watermelon and then figured out what to do with the watermelon. - [Michelle] Yeah. - [Man] That must have transpired by the object first was it really? - It was inspired by the, I was eating a watermelon. - Okay so it was after you were already eating it and you - Oh yeah - saw the shape and you said - AND I was just playing around with it. A lot of times I'm just playing around with it, flipping it upside down. - Yeah. - There's a leaf one where I just kept flipping it and looking at it sideways and upside down and what comes to mind and what finally makes sense - [Interviewer] Yeah. - [Michelle] When you think of it as a chart. - This may come across as kind of a weird question, but are you a designer or do you think you're more of an artist? - I'm figuring that out. (Interviewer laughs) I have always, I have bounced around a lot with different creative pursuits. I studied graphic design. I don't know. - Not that it requires a definition. - I like to think of it as a creative, that's sort of what I went into advertising wanting to be a quote on quote creative - Yeah - And that still sort of feels right. It feels funny to call yourself a creative. - Yeah. Another example that I like, maybe one of the first pieces of yours that I saw was the Wi-Fi strength in coffee houses - [Michelle] Mhm. - [Interviewer] Which I thought was brilliant. It's the filter, the coffee beans aligned like the Wi-Fi symbol. Also one of the rarer examples where you did animation - [Michelle] Mhm. - [Interviewer] Are you going to be doing more animation? Is animation important? Is it not that big of deal? Tell us a little bit about the moving image approach. - The first animated or the first video one I did, and thank you for the compliment on the coffee one - Of course. - I actually don't, I think I saw a coffee filter and I thought that's the shape of Wi-Fi. And that's how that started. The animation was because when you think of Wi-Fi it's going up and down, it does feel like it should be animated and that is the way it feels like it would be a chart. It goes up and down. The first animated or video one that I did that was sort of a real object was about ants because there was an ant infestation and they drive me crazy it's really maddening. - [Interviewer] Yeah. - So I just put a piece of paper under the ants and put a little piece of sugar or honey or something on one side so they would go toward that. Oh it was about how you don't want, if it's one ant you kind of leave it be but if it's a million ants, that's the time you decide to become a violent (interviewer laughs) spray using. - Yeah. Yeah there's a correlation between quantity of ants and murderous feelings. - Yeah, exactly (interviewer laughs) So those two are two where it just felt necessary - Yeah. - Because of the way the object works. - Okay. So one question I wanted to ask you, I know that you mentioned to met that you're working on a new book Real Life Charts. I don't know if that's the title or just a working title - It's not, no it's not. It won't be out for awhile but that is the project It won't be out for awhile but that is the project that I'm working on right now. that I'm working on right now. - Yeah. So tell us about that. - Yeah. So tell us about that. I know you're not supposed to talk about it I know you're not supposed to talk about it too much, it's still in process but what's the plan too much, it's still in process but what's the plan is it just more of the same type of work you've is it just more of the same type of work you've been doing? been doing? Any interesting tidbits you want to share with us? Any interesting tidbits you want to share with us? - It's just more about over thinking and that is what I do. - It's just more about over thinking and that is what I do. I look at an object and I just overthink it. I look at an object and I just overthink it. - Yeah. - Yeah. - My charts are generally taking one thing and - My charts are generally taking one thing and taking all the possible routes to answer a question. taking all the possible routes to answer a question. - Yeah. It's interesting. - Yeah. It's interesting. So, I know you've said a few times to me it's not So, I know you've said a few times to me it's not really quote on quote data visualization really quote on quote data visualization - Yeah. - Yeah. - These are, sometimes it is a little bit of data - These are, sometimes it is a little bit of data but they're more conceptual. but they're more conceptual. I think that's fair. I think that's fair. At the same time when people are doing data At the same time when people are doing data visualization, they're kind of doing the same thing. visualization, they're kind of doing the same thing. There's a question, there's a problem, and there's There's a question, there's a problem, and there's something, there's information. something, there's information. Whether is big data or small data behind it Whether is big data or small data behind it that they're trying to communicate to help solve that they're trying to communicate to help solve a problem or whatever the case may be. a problem or whatever the case may be. One of the things I recommend to my clients and One of the things I recommend to my clients and my students is that they try not to think in terms my students is that they try not to think in terms of charts. of charts. Line chart, bar chart, whatever it is, think Line chart, bar chart, whatever it is, think about solving problems. about solving problems. Think about answering questions. Think about answering questions. So you're sort of doing that naturally through So you're sort of doing that naturally through primary focus. primary focus. Sort of a long rambling question to get at, what Sort of a long rambling question to get at, what advice would you give to people who, they're not advice would you give to people who, they're not necessarily as free and artistic mind as you're necessarily as free and artistic mind as you're able to be and what you're doing but they're able to be and what you're doing but they're sitting down at their desk opening up Excel sitting down at their desk opening up Excel trying to do a project, what advice could you trying to do a project, what advice could you give them to sort of get them in a frame of give them to sort of get them in a frame of mind that allows them to do some of what you mind that allows them to do some of what you try to do in your work? try to do in your work? - I would watch an OK Go video. - I would watch an OK Go video. (both laugh) (both laugh) - Okay. - Okay. - I would play around with everything. - I would play around with everything. If you're opening excel make some art out of the cells. If you're opening excel make some art out of the cells. - [Interviewer] Yeah. - [Interviewer] Yeah. - I think generally I get the most insights out - I think generally I get the most insights out of playing around and experimenting. of playing around and experimenting. - Yeah. So be free. - Yeah. So be free. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Allow yourself to be free and try things. - Allow yourself to be free and try things. - Yeah. I think so. - Yeah. I think so. Flip things around, yeah. Flip things around, yeah. I am always really inspired by watching I am always really inspired by watching videos by OK Go and watching interviews and talks videos by OK Go and watching interviews and talks - [Interviewer] Yeah. - [Interviewer] Yeah. - Because of that they talk about this. - Because of that they talk about this. They go into a space and like play around, experiment They go into a space and like play around, experiment - Flip it upside down. - Flip it upside down. - Yeah. - Yeah. I love that, that is a very specific answer. I love that, that is a very specific answer. That's like go check out OK Go. That's like go check out OK Go. (both laugh) (both laugh) - Yeah I love them so much. - Yeah I love them so much. And I kind of discovered them late. And I kind of discovered them late. - Another question I have for you, today's talk, - Another question I have for you, today's talk, today's lesson is all about physicality, real today's lesson is all about physicality, real world things. world things. Of course in my world it's not necessarily Of course in my world it's not necessarily really working with real world objects. really working with real world objects. It's more about introducing physicality into your It's more about introducing physicality into your digital, virtual world stuff. digital, virtual world stuff. In my lesson I gave an example of a visualization In my lesson I gave an example of a visualization I'm working on where I'm explaining the distance, I'm working on where I'm explaining the distance, essentially how far something is. essentially how far something is. So I'm turning it into, well if you did this a So I'm turning it into, well if you did this a million times it would be the equivalent of walking million times it would be the equivalent of walking from the Lincoln Memorial to the U.S. Capital. from the Lincoln Memorial to the U.S. Capital. It makes it into a physical, tangible thing for people. It makes it into a physical, tangible thing for people. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Another example is, I do these exercises in my workshops - Another example is, I do these exercises in my workshops and I ask people to turn a squiggly line into a face and I ask people to turn a squiggly line into a face and people turn their little white boards around and people turn their little white boards around and around so they can see the face before they and around so they can see the face before they can figure out how to draw it. can figure out how to draw it. So you're working with physical objects. So you're working with physical objects. Another question would be, it sounds like you do this. Another question would be, it sounds like you do this. You're stretching the bobby pin, you're turning You're stretching the bobby pin, you're turning the watermelon around and trying to get a sense the watermelon around and trying to get a sense of how to communicate something with it. of how to communicate something with it. Is that always part of the process? Is that always part of the process? Is it a necessary part of the process? Is it a necessary part of the process? Or just a sometimes thing? Or just a sometimes thing? How important is the physicality of the object How important is the physicality of the object itself to your process? itself to your process? - You actually reminded me, when I used to do pop - You actually reminded me, when I used to do pop culture infographics I would try to use not physical culture infographics I would try to use not physical objects but photos of physical objects. objects but photos of physical objects. - [Interviewer] Mhm. - [Interviewer] Mhm. - It was when I was at Glamour doing, I pitched a - It was when I was at Glamour doing, I pitched a fashion week infographic and I had asked the fashion week infographic and I had asked the editors to write down all the drinks they were editors to write down all the drinks they were drinking, how many steps they took on their Fitbit, drinking, how many steps they took on their Fitbit, how many cabs they took, and I made an information how many cabs they took, and I made an information graphic out of that and just thinking about graphic out of that and just thinking about how you can portray this information how you can portray this information you wouldn't necessarily think about you wouldn't necessarily think about with certain objects or how you would illustrate with certain objects or how you would illustrate just an event. just an event. But generally when I take the physical objects, But generally when I take the physical objects, I try my best to not mess with the physicality I try my best to not mess with the physicality or the form. or the form. There are plenty of artists who do this really There are plenty of artists who do this really well where they create something else out of an well where they create something else out of an object or they place objects in a away that is object or they place objects in a away that is beautiful. beautiful. Just art and collage out of objects. Just art and collage out of objects. - Yeah. - Yeah. - But I try my best not to force the story or to - But I try my best not to force the story or to force the form. force the form. And sometimes I will and I look back and I'm not And sometimes I will and I look back and I'm not as happy with that but I try to stay true to the as happy with that but I try to stay true to the way you would see the object, if that's sort of way you would see the object, if that's sort of what you're asking. what you're asking. - Yeah so, I think I understand. - Yeah so, I think I understand. You don't want to completely transform into You don't want to completely transform into something new and different, you want it to be something new and different, you want it to be honest to what it is. honest to what it is. - Mhm. - Mhm. - And allow that to communicate more directly. - And allow that to communicate more directly. - Yeah. - Yeah. - That's interesting. - That's interesting. - Like if it's something that's sort of in the middle - Like if it's something that's sort of in the middle is the floss. is the floss. The floss I didn't make looking at the floss. The floss I didn't make looking at the floss. The floss I thought of as a chart and then I put The floss I thought of as a chart and then I put a floss on it. a floss on it. - [Interviewer] Okay. It wasn't like there's no real shape of floss but - [Interviewer] Okay. It wasn't like there's no real shape of floss but when you see a floss it is kind of floppy when you see a floss it is kind of floppy - Yeah - Yeah - And I felt like I could use it as a line but - And I felt like I could use it as a line but generally I try not to mold things to tell the story. generally I try not to mold things to tell the story. Like the straw has that curve generally. Like the straw has that curve generally. - Yeah. That makes sense. - Yeah. That makes sense. Well we're actually out of time Michelle. Well we're actually out of time Michelle. I want to really thank you very much for joining I want to really thank you very much for joining me today. me today. I think that this is really interesting topic for me I think that this is really interesting topic for me because most people aren't going to create because most people aren't going to create visualizations out of real world objects but I think visualizations out of real world objects but I think what we talked about and your insights are going what we talked about and your insights are going to be really helpful for people to help them do a to be really helpful for people to help them do a better job of what they do in their day to day stuff. better job of what they do in their day to day stuff. Thank you very much, I really enjoyed speaking with you. Thank you very much, I really enjoyed speaking with you. - Thanks. Great. Thanks for having me. - Thanks. Great. Thanks for having me. - Alright. - Alright.