From the course: Data Visualization: A Lesson and Listen Series
Listen: Shirley Wu
From the course: Data Visualization: A Lesson and Listen Series
Listen: Shirley Wu
and I'm phrasing that very specifically 'cause that's the term that I've heard her use. And so, Shirley, welcome, and thank you very much for joining us here today. - Thank you so much, Bill, for having me here today, and thank you so much for using that phrase. It's having very good communication skills. And it's also having the technical chops to be able to pull these things off on your own. And so, I think that you fall into that category from what I know about you and the work that I've seen you do, which is amazingly beautiful and wonderful. So I was wondering, first of all, if you could tell me whether or not you agree? Are you a unicorn, and if so, or if not, how do you feel about that term being applied to you? - (chuckles) First of all, thank you so much. I'm super flattered that you think that way. I don't really consider myself a "unicorn", in the sense that because my background is in software, I completely agree that my technical skills are quite strong. I'm pretty happy with my technical skills. But in terms of everything else, the design, the data analysis, the storytelling, those are things that I've worked really hard to kind of get better at in the last two and a half years that I've been a freelancer, just because I realized that I needed to do that to be able to help my clients tell stories with their data. And oftentimes, my clients will come to me, and only me, with their dataset, and be like, "Please do something." And so I've kind of had to teach myself the rest of the four, the three out of four, out of necessity. I'm super flattered (chuckles) about the eye for design and creativity, especially because I don't think of myself as a designer, but it's an area that I've been trying really hard to work on. And the part about the story and narrative, that's one of my favorite parts, the storytelling part. And so that part, I'm really happy that you say so also. But the statistics, the data analysis part, is the part that I'm the weakest at, and it's something that I want to work on next. So-- - Yeah. - I don't really think I'm a unicorn, but I'm just trying to work on it little by little, trying to polish my skills so that I can be kind of like that all encompassing thing for my clients. - Yeah. Yeah, I think it's a fair point. I think that, to be perfectly honest, yeah, have I ever met anybody who was like 100 out of 100 score across all four? I don't think so, and for sure. - No. - And you know, I do think that most people tend to be, maybe if they're strong around the technical, maybe that is paired more with the statistics and analytics side, and then if they're strong on the creative, maybe that's paired with storytelling. And so it's rare to have somebody to even embody three of those things. And especially, I found, it's very rare for someone to have very good design skills and then also have the technical and statistical skills, so those two sides of the coin are really hard to pair together. - Yeah, I-- - I'm not surprised to hear you say that the statistics and analytics is your weakest, so that's why it's my weakest. And the reason why I think I need to work on that next is I'm starting to realize that I'm decent when it comes to trying to analyze data and trying to find patterns when the dataset is smaller, when it's maybe thousands or under 10 thousand. But once it gets bigger than that, I've realized that I'm very deficient in trying to look through the data and do any sort of meaningful analysis on there, so-- - Yeah. - I'm slowly, slowly trying to learn on the job, but that's where I've identified as my biggest weakness going forward. - Yeah. Yeah, we're doing a lesson and an interview on big data and talking to Elijah Meeks, who deals with trillions of rows of data up to, and yeah, I mean the amount of skill you need in order to really figure that is really mind-boggling And I don't even know how you guys teach yourself that, but good luck. I would to hear how you progressed along that line. - Yeah, so, oh, sorry. - No, that's okay. I was just going to ask you, so from your experience then, your clients are obviously coming to you because they've seen you, you're winning awards for projects like Bussed Out and for Data Sketches which got so much coverage. We spoke with Nadieh Bremer in the past as well. What do you think is the reason people come to you? And it's easy to say, well, it's cause you have beautiful design, high profile, great storytelling awards. But what do you think is that one thing that makes you stand out. Do you know that is? And obviously in the context of this unicorn conversation. - I would like to know myself. (both laugh) I didn't actually ever really expect things to take off so much. Like for example, for Data Sketches, that's just something that Nadieh and I decided to do for fun because we realized that we weren't doing as many personal projects as we liked, and so we just decided to do it for fun, and because we wanted to learn things. And the part that has, since then, become the most popular part of Data Sketches, which is the write-ups, the behind the scenes, that was actually an afterthought for us. We were like, it'd be cool if we not only did the project, but also wrote about it, like for something, like for people to just read about. It was actually an afterthought. And so we didn't really expect that to take off as much as it did. And to this day, I'm not sure what it was about that that took off. And I'm not sure what about some of my projects take off and what about some of my other projects that don't take off. There's things that I spend such a long time on, and nobody cares. (Bill laughs) And then there's some things that I do, and I don't think it's that big of a deal and people love. So, the public is a mystery to me. (laughs) - Yeah. - But I guess if I were to guess, I think maybe it's. For maybe a lot of my projects, I think I like to bring like a playfulness to things, a playfulness to data. I like to try my best to make things beautiful and colorful, and I think maybe that's what attracts people. And that and, yeah, I've no idea. (laughs) - Yeah. - I'd like to know also. - So based on your answer, I'm going to rephrase it in a slightly unicorn-ish, sort of like from a unicorn-ish perspective, let's say. 'Cause you're saying you bring playfulness, you try to make it beautiful, so playfulness is creativity, beauty is creativity, design, right? - Mm-hm. - There is statistics in there because you could do a very superficial analysis of some data, and if it's just superficial, it's kind of boring, so that's that data thinking thing, even if you're not an advanced analytics person. You have the technical chops to pull it off. You know you're a software engineering background. And so what you create, when you do interactives is subtle and beautiful, and the interactivity just plays and makes sense, and it just feels right as for a user. And you are communicating a real story as part of that process. And so, I would argue maybe it is the unicorn-ishness of that work that is that (speaking in foreign language), right? It's that combination of those things which when data visualizations which when data visualizations lack one or two or three components of that, lack one or two or three components of that, then they're not as great, right? then they're not as great, right? - Yeah, I think-- - Would you say that - Yeah, I think-- - Would you say that doing the Data Sketches project, specifically, doing the Data Sketches project, specifically, 'cause you mentioned the Bussed Out project 'cause you mentioned the Bussed Out project really helped you hone your narrative skills, really helped you hone your narrative skills, did Data Sketches help you with your unicorn-ness? did Data Sketches help you with your unicorn-ness? 'Cause you had to work on all those things, 'Cause you had to work on all those things, I imagine, simultaneously in some way. I imagine, simultaneously in some way. - Oh my god, yes. - Oh my god, yes. I think I can attribute Data Sketches I think I can attribute Data Sketches to pretty much all of my design. to pretty much all of my design. I think most of my realization that I suck at design, I think most of my realization that I suck at design, (Bill laughs) like not graphic design, (Bill laughs) like not graphic design, not art, but specifically data visualization design, not art, but specifically data visualization design, that for the first few years when I was doing code, that for the first few years when I was doing code, and I was just doing D3, and I was just trying to like, and I was just doing D3, and I was just trying to like, before I started freelancing, before I started freelancing, I thought data visualization equaled D3. I thought data visualization equaled D3. That was like my naive outlook. That was like my naive outlook. Once I started freelancing, Once I started freelancing, and it was really because of Data Sketches and it was really because of Data Sketches and working with Nadieh that I realized and working with Nadieh that I realized that there's a whole subset of design that there's a whole subset of design that's just data and data visualization specific design. that's just data and data visualization specific design. And that's what made me realize that sometimes, And that's what made me realize that sometimes, my visualizations are horrible because I ignored my visualizations are horrible because I ignored some of the common some of the common things that you need to look out for for visualization. things that you need to look out for for visualization. And that's why I started to pay more attention to it. And that's why I started to pay more attention to it. I think that's the biggest thing I think that's the biggest thing I learned from Data Sketches. I learned from Data Sketches. And the other thing is just And the other thing is just because Nadieh comes from a data science background. because Nadieh comes from a data science background. I learned from just kind of I learned from just kind of reading about her data process reading about her data process of how she thinks through the data and how. of how she thinks through the data and how. (chuckles) One of the stupidest things I've done is, (chuckles) One of the stupidest things I've done is, because I come from such a code-centric background, because I come from such a code-centric background, some of the first few times I was trying to clean data, some of the first few times I was trying to clean data, I would do it literally in a text file that's a CSV, I would do it literally in a text file that's a CSV, and I would literally just write a cell, comma, thing, and I would literally just write a cell, comma, thing, comma, thing, comma, and then it would take me days. comma, thing, comma, and then it would take me days. - Yeah. - Yeah. - And I read one of Nadieh's post - And I read one of Nadieh's post about how she cleans her data in Excel, and I'm like, duh. about how she cleans her data in Excel, and I'm like, duh. (both laugh) (both laugh) So I've learned a lot from Nadieh, So I've learned a lot from Nadieh, not only just from reading from her blog post or her post, not only just from reading from her blog post or her post, but also just asking her questions but also just asking her questions about how she might approach a specific data problem. about how she might approach a specific data problem. And the fun thing about Data Sketches is that And the fun thing about Data Sketches is that she's oftentimes told me that she would be amazed with, she's oftentimes told me that she would be amazed with, like that she would read about my code process like that she would read about my code process and really love what I did there. and really love what I did there. So, it's been a really amazing project that way. So, it's been a really amazing project that way. - Yeah. - Yeah. Mature collaboration, that's really great. Mature collaboration, that's really great. - Yeah. - Yeah. - So tell us what you're working on now? - So tell us what you're working on now? What's the next thing you're going to put out there What's the next thing you're going to put out there that you're excited about, that you're excited about, that's interesting, innovative, cool? that's interesting, innovative, cool? - Yeah, so I have an answer for that. - Yeah, so I have an answer for that. (Bill laughs) (Bill laughs) So I'm still continuing with my visualizations, So I'm still continuing with my visualizations, with my client work, with my client work, but the thing that I'm really excited for this year is that, but the thing that I'm really excited for this year is that, for the last few years, for the last few years, I've been really fascinated with physical installations, I've been really fascinated with physical installations, and those sort of experiences and those sort of experiences where you walk into a room where you walk into a room and the artwork is all around you that it immerses you. and the artwork is all around you that it immerses you. And sometimes, it's interactive, and I love that because, And sometimes, it's interactive, and I love that because, as someone that works in software, as someone that works in software, all of the things that I build and I could spend all of the things that I build and I could spend months and months of pouring my love into it, months and months of pouring my love into it, and it becomes just something that someone sees on a screen. and it becomes just something that someone sees on a screen. - Yeah. - Yeah. - And I'd be lucky if I have 30 seconds of their time, - And I'd be lucky if I have 30 seconds of their time, maybe a minute of their time. maybe a minute of their time. And because there's so many other things on their screen, And because there's so many other things on their screen, like vying for their attention. like vying for their attention. And so for the last few years, And so for the last few years, I've been kind of obsessed with this idea I've been kind of obsessed with this idea of how can I bring my work into the physical world. of how can I bring my work into the physical world. And for this year, I've made it a goal And for this year, I've made it a goal to actually pursue that. to actually pursue that. So I still don't really know exactly how to go about it, So I still don't really know exactly how to go about it, but the end of last year, but the end of last year, I did this 3D data visualization project called Legends. I did this 3D data visualization project called Legends. It's about the 51 female Nobel Laureates. It's about the 51 female Nobel Laureates. And I did that one because I realized And I did that one because I realized that for me to move into the physical world, that for me to move into the physical world, I need to be able to think in the third dimension, I need to be able to think in the third dimension, and that's why I did a 3D visualization. and that's why I did a 3D visualization. And I'm hoping to, some time this year, And I'm hoping to, some time this year, start making that into a physical start making that into a physical kind of exhibit experience. kind of exhibit experience. Yeah, so that's what I'm working on right now. Yeah, so that's what I'm working on right now. - Very cool. - Not actively, - Very cool. - Not actively, but what I'm hoping to work on this year. but what I'm hoping to work on this year. - Yeah, that's great. - Yeah, that's great. It's very good to have goals, It's very good to have goals, and that sounds like a really interesting project. and that sounds like a really interesting project. I look forward to seeing where you go with it. I look forward to seeing where you go with it. - Thank you so much! - Thank you so much! - Yeah, no, it's very cool. - Yeah, no, it's very cool. So Shirley, unfortunately, we are out of time. So Shirley, unfortunately, we are out of time. But I just wanted to say, first of all, But I just wanted to say, first of all, it's a pleasure to talk to you, it's a pleasure to talk to you, and it's really interesting to hear your perspective, and it's really interesting to hear your perspective, your humility about your unicorn-ness is very good, your humility about your unicorn-ness is very good, very refreshing, very nice. very refreshing, very nice. But I definitely still say you're definitely a unicorn. But I definitely still say you're definitely a unicorn. - Thank you. (laughs) - And I'm really glad - Thank you. (laughs) - And I'm really glad that our audience got a chance to hear that our audience got a chance to hear what you had to say about it and your thoughts about it what you had to say about it and your thoughts about it and how you progressed and how you learned and how you progressed and how you learned to develop those skills that needed developing. to develop those skills that needed developing. So thank you very, very much for being with us. So thank you very, very much for being with us. - And thank you so much, Bill, for this interview - And thank you so much, Bill, for this interview and for the really awesome questions. and for the really awesome questions.
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